PODCAST: We're Eating More Ultra-Processed Foods Than We Think

ZACH MOORE: Welcome to On Health with Houston Methodist. I’m Zach Moore, I’m a photographer and editor here and I’m also a longtime podcaster.

KIM RIVERA HUSTON-WEBER: I’m Kim River Huston-Weber and I’m a copywriter here at Houston Methodist.

ZACH: And Kim, do you eat ultra-processed foods?

KIM: I mean, it’s kinda hard not to, right? They’re seemingly everywhere and they’re a huge part of the American diet for better or worse I guess.

ZACH: Yeah, unfortunately. And when you’re trying to be healthy, one of the first things that we understand we should try to cut down on, you don’t have to totally cut it out of your diet but try to cut down on, is processed foods. So, it just stands to reason, do you really wanna cut out ultra-processed foods, right?

KIM: Yeah, of course. And I think the delineation of what’s ultra-processed versus what’s processed or minimally processed, there’s a lot of blurred lines there. And a contributing factor to it is like you see all of this stuff online – at least in my feed, I feel like there’s always some person who’s not a registered dietitian, not a food scientist, that are pointing at some food label and they’re saying, “If you’re eating X ingredient, you’re poisoning yourself.” And then, they’ll go to a big box store, and they’ll stay, like, “Here it is.”

ZACH: Yeah.

KIM: And you start to think, “Am I poisoning myself?” But then also it’s been a long time since I’ve done even high school chemistry, so you know, I’m not the best judge. So, I’m really excited for your conversation today because there’s a lot of nuisance to this topic that I think needs to be explored.

ZACH: Absolutely. So, we talked to Amanda Beaver, she is a Senior Registered Dietitian here at Houston Methodist. We’ve had her on the podcast a few times before, always a pleasure talking to her. And looking forward to what she has to say about ultra-processed foods.

[Sound effect plays to signal beginning of interview]

ZACH: Thanks for being back on the podcast with us, Amanda.

AMANDA BEAVER: Thank you.

ZACH: Now, ultra-processed foods, let’s start out by defining what those are. What’s the difference between an ultra-processed and processed food? And I guess what causes the “ultra”?

AMANDA: This can be really difficult to pin down and one thing that I wanna say is that processed foods exist on a continuum. So, there’s not like one hard definition as to what an ultra-processed food is versus a processed food or minimally processed food. So, think about it like a continuum. So, an example that you could use is, maybe think about like oatmeal for example, right? You can get the steel cut oats, you can get the quick oats, you can get the little packet that you just add the water to, the instant oats. And then, you can also get breakfast cereal that maybe has some oats in it, like a popular marshmallow cereal out there. So, right, that’s an example of that continuum of food processing. So, researchers and scientists have tried to devise some kind of system to help them know, “Okay, what is an ultra-processed food?” To help them study this topic. So, what they’ve done is they’ve divided foods into about four different categories. So, the first category is gonna be our unprocessed or minimally processed foods. So, this is gonna be things that don’t have any salt, or sugar, or oil, or colors, or flavors or any of that added to them. A piece of fruit or maybe even frozen vegetables.

ZACH: Okay.

AMANDA: That’s one that I really wanted to highlight in this conversation because so often patients come to me thinking that frozen vegetables are worse for them, but actually, they’re considered a minimally processed food.

ZACH: No, I had that same preconceived notion about frozen vegetables, absolutely. I don’t know where that comes from, but maybe because it’s – maybe it’ll last longer but it’s in the freezer, and that’s a whole ‘nother process of it lasting longer than in like a can.

AMANDA: Right. I think because it’s in a bag and it’s in the freezer that we think that it’s less healthy for us. But actually, when it comes to frozen veggies or fruits, usually, the fruit or vegetable is washed, chopped up and then frozen. There is nothing going on there that’s gonna make it bad for us. And sometimes, that freezing process where it stays in the freezer can actually preserve a lot of the nutrients compared to maybe if that food was just sitting out on the shelf for a long time. So, it actually can preserve some of the nutrients. So, yes, frozen foods are considered a minimally processed food.

ZACH: Alright.

AMANDA: And it’s totally okay to eat them. Actually, load up on them. The next category that I wanted to talk about is our processed foods. So, these are gonna be somewhere in the middle. They’re gonna be kind of the middle of that spectrum. And these are gonna be things that maybe have a little salt added to them or a little oil or a little sugar. So, think things like maybe salted nuts. The nuts, they’re a whole food but they’ve just got a little salt on them, right, to give them a little flavor. Or maybe think about maybe you’re making some veggies and you’re gonna roast some vegetables, right? You’re gonna add a little bit of oil and maybe a little pinch of salt to those roasted veggies, right? Or maybe think about some apple sauce, right, there might be, there might be a little bit of salt added to that, right? So, these foods exist somewhere in the middle. Another really great example is something like a canned tuna, right?

ZACH: Hmm.

AMANDA: That can be a really nutritious food, high quality protein, great source of omega 3’s, but it does have a little bit of salt added to it, right, so it’s somewhere in the middle of that spectrum.

ZACH: Okay.

AMANDA: Another one is gonna be canned beans. When we look at the ingredient list on canned beans, it’s gonna be water, salt and beans, right? Nothing crazy there.

ZACH: Hmm.

AMANDA: So, yes, that is a processed food, but it’s more in the middle of that spectrum. And it’s okay to eat these foods in the processed group, right, those are gonna be – usually, they just have between two to three ingredients in them. And then, the last group is our ultra-processed foods, right?

ZACH: Okay.

AMANDA: So, we’ve got kinda these three main groups that we’re talking about here and the ultra-processed foods, this is the category that is really linked with some of the worst health outcomes. So, these foods tend to have ingredient lists that are four ingredients or longer, and they tend to have things like added sugars, maybe – I’ve heard just corn syrup. Maybe added colors, I think maybe red dyes or, you know, those other kinds of buzz, buzzword ingredients we hear about.

ZACH: Right.

AMANDA: Also, preservatives, stabilizers, thickeners, gels, emulsifiers. All of these different ingredients added to them that make them considered ultra-processed. And these foods tend to be our most convenience items, right? Things like our frozen pizzas or our hotdogs or maybe even our cookies, our packaged cookies, our instant noodles. And then, a lot of our breakfast cereals as well would fall into this category too.

ZACH: That’s a shame, right? I grew up eating breakfast cereal.

AMANDA: Right, but – not all cereals are considered ultra-processed. You can find some that are more in that middle end of the spectrum that I was just talking about.

ZACH: I think we all know which ones might be healthier than others.

AMANDA: Right, it’s usually fairly easy to tell. So, think about those three categories, our minimally processed or unprocessed, right, our fruits, our veggies, our proteins, our you know, whole, raw nuts. And then, our ones in the middle, which will be like, maybe our salted nuts or maybe our canned beans, or our canned tomatoes. And then, the last group, which is that ultra-processed group.

ZACH: Got it. So, I’ve read that in the United States, more than half of our energy intake comes from ultra-processed foods. This is not ideal, right?

AMANDA: Yeah. So, when we look at the research on ultra-processed foods, we found that people who tend to eat more ultra-processed foods have a higher risk of having low HDL. That’s our good cholesterol, really want that one to be a little higher. They’re also at a higher risk of weight gain, and then, lastly, a higher risk of metabolic syndrome. Which is basically just higher weight, higher cholesterol, triglycerides, high blood sugar. So, the last thing that I wanna say. People who are at the highest end of intake for these ultra-processed foods, people who eat the most ultra-processed foods tend to have a higher risk of all causes of death, also a higher risk of heart disease and stroke, and even depression. So, we do know that there’s something about these ultra-processed foods that are linked with poor health. But this just shows a relationship, right, this just shows that these foods are linked with these conditions. Recently, about two or three years ago, there was an amazing study that was done on ultra-processed foods versus minimally processed foods. And this study took ten men and ten women, and they put them on a ultra-processed diet for two weeks and then a minimally processed diet for two weeks. And they looked at a bunch of different factors. So, to give you some examples of some of the foods that they put these people on. In the minimally processed diet that they were having for two weeks, they might have maybe some roasted salmon and roasted veggies, right, maybe with some rice or quinoa. And then, on one of the ultra-processed weeks, maybe they had some frozen enchiladas with maybe a soda on the side.

ZACH: Oh, man, that’s –

[Laughter]

Yeah, I have eaten a lot of those in my time. Yeah, I’ve had –

AMAMDA: Right.

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: But we see that there’s a big difference between those. But here’s the thing, they made sure that the meals in the ultra-processed versus the minimally processed had the same amount of calories, the same amount of protein, same amount of fiber, same carb, same fat. So, these all things considered, were technically nutritionally equal.

ZACH: Right.

AMANDA: So, theoretically, you’d think there probably wouldn’t be a difference in their weight gain or their health outcomes, but there was.

ZACH: Okay.

AMANDA: So, at the end of the study, what researchers found was that the people eating the minimally processed food, you know, those who are getting for breakfast maybe yogurt with nuts and fruit, and maybe salmon with roasted veggies and maybe some rice or quinoa, those individuals lost on average about two pounds. They were only doing this for two weeks and they were not instructed to eat less, they were instructed to eat however much they wanted.

ZACH: Okay.

AMANDA: And then, those eating the ultra-processed foods, maybe they were getting breakfast cereals or pastries, or muffins for breakfast and then eating the, you know, frozen entrees for dinner. Even though the calories were equal, at the end of the study they gained an average of` two pounds.

ZACH: Oh, wow.

AMANDA: Even though the calories and nutrition were equal for both. So, what this tells us is there really is something about these ultra-processed foods that are leading to weight gain in people and something about them that is making them contribute to more of these chronic diseases that are linked to weight gain.

ZACH: The trap of just counting the calories can really throw you off course sometimes. You’re like, “Oh, well, you know I have 400 left today to give. I can eat these frozen enchiladas.”

AMANDA: Right.

ZACH: And you say, “No, no. Go for the roasted salmon, right, even though it’s –

AMANDA: Right.

ZACH: I mean, and I think we all know deep down that what’s healthier and what’s less healthy, right?

AMANDA: Right. We do. But there’s one thing I think that a lot of people when they look at a food label, right, they might be like, “Okay, this meal has 400 calories, and this meal that’s maybe, you know, the salmon and veggies and rice also has 400 calories. One is a lot more processed than the other, shouldn’t they impact my weight and my health equally?” The answer that this study tells us is actually, no. They actually impact us a lot differently, even though the calories might be equal.

ZACH: Right.

AMANDA: And there’s a few reasons why.

ZACH: Mm-hmm.

AMANDA: So, the very first reason is that, with these ultra-processed foods, they tend to be more calorie dense. So, what I mean by that is there’s a higher amount of calories in a smaller volume of food. So, compare maybe like a cup of juice to a cup of watermelon, right? That juice is gonna be more dense and rich in calories, that doesn’t have as much of the fiber and the water and stuff in it.

ZACH: Right.

AMANDA: So, we can’t eat as great of a volume, right, if it’s an ultra-processed food because it’s more calorie dense. Another reason is that – and this is what they actually saw in the study, is that people tend to eat ultra-processed foods faster.

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: So, what might be happening is maybe our brain isn’t catching up with our fullness, right, we might not realize when we’re getting full. Think about when you’re eating, you know, a piece of chicken and some veggies, you gotta cut up that piece of chicken.

ZACH: Right.

AMANDA: Right? Now, compare that to maybe a frozen entrée, that’s real easy to just kinda scoop into our mouth, right?

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: So, we tend to eat these ultra-processed foods faster, and because of that, we tend to end up eating more calories worth of these foods.

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: So, back to that study that I was referencing, those participants, when they were eating the ultra-processed diet, they were eating on average about 500 calories more per day because those foods had a higher calorie density and they could eat them faster. So, they were eating more. And then, the next reason is one that really blew my mind when I first learned about this. What it says on the food label, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s what our body is going to absorb. So, what I mean by that is, think of an almond, right, that almond if it’s in its whole form, it’s got a bunch of fiber in it and it’s hard to chew up, right? We gotta do some work to chew up that almond.

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: Compare that to almond butter or peanut butter, the work has been done for us, right? It’s already been broken down for us.

ZACH: Okay, I see where you’re going. Interesting. Okay.

AMANDA: So, our body can’t absorb all the calories in a whole almond compared to the almond butter or the peanut butter, where it can absorb a lot more of the calories from because our body is not having to do as hard of work to extract and digest and breakdown those more ultra-processed foods.

ZACH: Yeah. You don’t really think about that really, but yeah, the chewing of the almond, like that is energy your body is putting out to absorb it, okay.

AMANDA: Right.

ZACH: Okay.

AMANDA: Right. And then, also because it has all that fiber in it, we’re not gonna be able to absorb all the calories in it. What that means is, when we look at the food label, if we’re trying to decide, “Hey, should I have a snack of, you know, peanuts or almonds? Or should I do some peanut butter, almond butter?” Well, the peanuts and almonds are more minimally processed and ultimately, might have less of an impact – we’ll absorb a little bit less of the calories in them, but we’re still getting a satisfying snack. So, I think it goes to show that even though there’s a food label that says the calories, we don’t necessarily absorb all of them in there if it’s a minimally processed food.

ZACH: Okay. Everybody speculates, right, they say, “Is it the preservatives? Is it all these things,” right? And not necessarily. I mean, it’s a factor but not the factor.

AMANDA: Absolutely. And I think people when they are talking about ultra-processed foods, they assume that the problem is the preservatives or the stabilizers, or the colors. Which yes, some of those, you know, might not be the best for us. A lot of them don’t really have that much of an impact on us.

ZACH: Okay.

AMANDA: And where the problem lies is kind of the food as a whole, it’s because the calories are a lot more absorbable and we’re gonna absorb more of the energy in it. And then, the last factor that really differentiates the two, like, the minimally processed from the ultra-processed is that, ultra-processed foods will have a higher impact on our blood sugar. So, we’ll get a bigger, faster blood sugar spike when we have a ultra-processed food compared to a minimally processed food. So, one comparison would be, let’s take a look maybe at if you’re having some – a piece of fruit, maybe an apple and we compare that to a juice, for example. That fiber and that action of chewing up that apple, you’re gonna digest and absorb the carbohydrates in that apple more slowly and it’s gonna have less of a big impact on your blood sugar than drinking the juice, right? You can drink that juice a lot faster and it’s gonna be absorbed into your bloodstream more quickly.

ZACH: I guess applesauce would be in the middle ground there between the two.

AMANDA: Yeah.

ZACH: Okay.

AMANDA: Spot on. So, to kinda summarize that, these foods we tend to absorb more of the calories from them, we tend to eat them faster, they tend to be more calorie dense, right, more energy dense, and the last one is they have a bigger impact on our blood sugar and more faster spike in our blood sugar than a more minimally processed food.

ZACH: Okay. So, how did we end up here with all these ultra-processed foods and us eating them so often? I assume it’s convenience, price, fast food for example.

AMANDA: Yeah, so there’s a lot of reasons why these have started to dominate our diet. Some of them are out of our control, so…

[Laughter]

The biggest reason is that these foods are more shelf stable, right, so they last a lot longer because they’ve had maybe preservatives added to them to help them last longer. The next reason is that these foods do tend to be lower cost, both for the consumer and the manufacturer. So, think things like maybe instant noodles, right, where those are lower cost and lower quality ingredients. And you know, an ultra-processed food. So, cost does play a role, but later, you know, we can talk more about some low-cost ideas that are minimally processed.

[Laughter]

And then, the next reason is that these foods are usually aesthetic, right? They’re in colorful packaging that looks beautiful, they’re exciting. And this is especially true for kids, right, they’re maybe marketed to look really yummy and enticing for us whether we’re adults or kids, I guess. And then, the last reason is marketing, right? These food companies are making us think that we need these. That these are gonna be easier and better for us. One example that I wanna give on this is something like, maybe, protein chips or protein cookies. Those are marketed to us because, “Oh, you know, this is gonna be good for me. This protein, I need this protein.”

ZACH: Right.

AMANDA: But actually, a more minimally processed snack might be a whole lot better for us. So, the marketing is really convincing us that it’s a good idea.

[Sound effect plays to signal interjection in the interview]

ZACH: Up after the break, more with Amanda about ultra-processed foods and some alternatives you might be able to swap them out for.

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[Sound effect signals return to the interview]

ZACH: You mentioned a lot of the potential side effects of ultra-processed foods, you know, poor sleep, anxiety, depression, your metabolism slows down, all sorts of – you know, brain, heart, lung issues, stomach issues, right? There’s still hope for turning one’s diet around before it’s too late, right?

AMANDA: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Absolutely. Like, it is never too late and the place that I really like to start with people is just brainstorming some little swaps that they can make in their diet. So, I feel like the easiest one is probably snacks because those do tend to be the ultra-processed foods in our diet, right?

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: Think like the crackers and chips, and –

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: With our snacks, there are some great options. So, we could just swap out instead of doing our crackers or our chips we could do our nuts. And it’s okay to meet me halfway and you don’t have to do the raw nuts, right?

ZACH: Mm-hmm.

AMANDA: You could get the nuts with a little bit of salt on them, that’s okay.

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: It’s meeting me in the middle, right, and you’re still gonna get a lot of those benefits from the fiber and the nutrients. And you’re also not gonna get quite as much of a calorie absorption, right, if we’re having peanut butter, for example.

ZACH: Mm-hmm.

AMANDA: Not to say that nut butters are bad, right, I’m just using them as an example to talk about how, you know, processed – the kind of processing continuum that can exist with foods.

ZACH: Right.

AMANDA: So, that’s the first thing is, make some simple swaps with your snacks. Instead of crackers or chips, or pretzels, or a granola bar, try doing nuts instead.

ZACH: Yeah, the granola bar, see, that’s a sneakily not as healthy a snack as you think it is, right?

AMANDA: Yeah, right. Because it’s kind of very convenient and fast. However, they are an example of an ultra-processed food. Another simple one is just having fruit, and I think fruit is another one of those foods just like whole grains that get kind of demonized for the sugar.

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: But fruits are as minimally processed as they get, right, and what we know from research is that eating a diet higher in fruits and veggies is linked with so many great health outcomes. Even lower risk of type 2 diabetes, which is the main reason people worry about fruits in the first place, right, it’s the sugar.

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: Yeah, but it’s actually linked with a lower risk of type 2 diabetes. So, fruits and nuts are really great snack options. And the last one is your meals. So, think about what component of your meal is a little bit more processed. So, maybe if you’re making couscous for example with your family, maybe the boxed couscous. Maybe instead of that, maybe try to do rice or quinoa, right? And then, to flavor it, just put a little pinch of salt and some dried herbs, maybe bay leaf in the pot or the rice cooker. And that’s gonna be a more minimally processed version of a grain that’s gonna be more nutritious and better for your health.

ZACH: And highly processed meats, you know, hot dogs, sausages, deli meats, they seem to be the strongest offenders and have some of the strongest risks for long-term side effects. So, that’s another strike against fast food there, y’all. But with that in mind, what are some alternative choices for people looking for, relatively inexpensive meals and also ones that they can get when they’re in a hurry? Basically, a fast-food alternative.

AMANDA: Yeah. So, with fast-food, that is one category where a lot of fast-food restaurants nowadays these foods are made ahead of time, right, they are considered ultra-processed --

ZACH: I thought they said they don’t make it ‘til we order it though, I --

[Laughter]

AMANDA: Right. Well, it depends on what it is. But you know, the bun isn’t and the nuggets. A lot of times those are gonna be made in advance, packaged in advance. Our goal is to try to think of some swaps, right? Some easy, fast, nutritious swaps that are gonna be less processed or less ultra-processed. So, some ideas that I usually recommend to my patients are to try something as simple as breakfast for dinner.

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: This is one of my personal favorites. So, all you have to do is scramble two eggs or you can just, you know, cook them sunny side up and then have some whole-grain toast with some avocado. Boom, that meal will probably take you less time than it will take to drive to the fast-food restaurant, wait in the line and get the food.

ZACH: Especially, you know, with the prices these days. I mean, you know, because fast-food used to be, well, convenience and price.

AMANDA: Right.

ZACH: But I think the price has kind of equaled out. So that, what you just described, in addition to saving time is gonna save you money.

AMANDA: Right. Right. Absolutely. So, that’s one really easy meal. And if you don’t like avocado toast, you could do something else instead. You could have maybe some beans with it or maybe –

ZACH: Who doesn’t like avocado toast though?

AMANDA: I know.

[Laughter]

Right? Put a little bit of -- a little pinch of salt or everything bagel seasoning. So, that’s a really fast idea, is kind of breakfast for dinner, eggs.

ZACH: Okay.

AMANDA: So simple, so inexpensive. And then, my other ideas come from inspiration from some of our favorite, fast, casual restaurants. So, think things like making your own burrito bowl. That is so easy to put together. All you need is some canned beans, which we learned, right, canned beans are just salt, the bean and the water.

ZACH: Mm-hmm.

AMANDA: Just rinse it and drain it. That’ll remove 40% of the sodium. Have it with some rice that you make in a rice cooker or your pot, and then you can add some pico, maybe a little bit of frozen corn that you reheat.

ZACH: This all sounds very good. This is – I’m gonna go home and make a burrito bowl after this, I think.

AMANDA: It’s so easy and it’s so cheap. And I feel like what makes us wanna buy this from a restaurant is usually the guacamole. But you can get some pretty good guacamole from the grocery store.

ZACH: Okay.

[Laughter]

AMANDA: And then, my next idea, that this is another one I really love to make is a poke bowl.

ZACH: I’ve recently gotten into poke bowls, I’m a big fan.

AMANDA: Yes.

ZACH: I’m a recent convert to poke bowls, they’re – it’s good stuff, people.

AMANDA: So refreshing and it’s great for the hot Houston weather.

ZACH: Yes.

AMANDA: So, all you need is rice and then you need some crisp, crunchy veggies like cucumber, you can buy the carrot shredded, already shredded.

ZACH: See, I like that mentality there because you know what? It’s a big lift, it’s a big ask if you’re used to getting food somewhere and then have to prepare it yourself.

AMANDA: Right.

ZACH: It’s okay to kind of cheat and be – you know, for me anyway I’ll pay a little bit extra to have it a little pre-prepared like the precut like that because that’s extra stuff. The shredded carrots, it may seem like a small thing but a little step like that can help you more embrace this do-it-yourself at home food, I think.

AMANDA: Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s why I love those foods that are more in the middle, right, like the canned beans, the tuna, even the frozen veggies, which we learned are actually considered a minimally processed food.

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: Basically, an unprocessed food, right, they’re just washed, and chopped and frozen. Those are great time savers. So, poke bowl, you could put some avocado on that too. For the protein I like to do edamame that I get in the frozen section and just cook that up in the microwave. And then, I like to do it with tuna because it’s really easy and inexpensive. But you could do salmon, you could do the raw versions of those if you wanna get the sushi grade salmon or tuna. But I like to just use regular canned tuna because it’s inexpensive. And then, my next idea is a mediterranean bowl. So, this also takes some inspiration from some popular, fast casual restaurants that a lot of us can probably think of. So, what you’re gonna do for that is pick your favorite grain. It could be quinoa, it could be rice and then we’re gonna put maybe some chickpeas on it, maybe some hummus. And then, for the veg, you could do some cucumber, maybe slice up some cherry tomatoes, maybe put a little feta cheese, right? This is sounding really good.

ZACH: I – yes. I’m on board for this.

AMANDA: And it’s really easy, right? Because the only thing that you really have to put a little bit more effort into is the protein.

ZACH: Mm-hmm.

AMANDA: The next idea is doing something like a noodle bowl. So, this is one of my husband and I’s favorites. So, we talked about how instant noodles can be considered an ultra-processed food, so one thing that you can do if you wanna make your instant noodles a little bit more on the nutritious side is instead of using the seasoning packet that it comes with, maybe you can just use a carton of broth that you get at the grocery store and add a little dash of soy sauce to it.        

ZACH: Yeah, because you gotta watch out for those seasoning packets, they are high in sodium content.

AMANDA: They are. They are, so you could even use half the packet too if you want to or you can use some other broth that you get from the grocery store. And then, to add some nutritious ingredients to it, you could throw in a handful of spinach. We like to crack an egg into it. An egg kinda poaches and it’s almost like this nice noddle bowl with a poached egg in it.

ZACH: Okay.

AMANDA: And then, some other ideas are adding maybe some frozen edamame. And then, you can even add frozen veggies like some frozen broccoli straight into the boiling water.

ZACH: Okay.

AMANDA: So, that way the veggie, the broccoli, the frozen broccoli just cooks along with the noodles. So, those are some of my favorite fast, easy meals that are more minimally processed and are good alternatives to fast food that are gonna be more nutritious for us, while also in many cases less expensive.

ZACH: These all sound great to me, so I’m definitely gonna try some of these. So, it takes just a little bit of planning ahead, obviously.

AMANDA: Yeah.

ZACH: So, if you just – it’s worth the time in your schedule to map out because then what are you driving around looking for a fast-food place to go? Take that time, reallocate it to planning ahead at home and then you get some great meals out of this.

AMANDA: Right. Absolutely. Or compare that to a food delivery service where you’re paying the processing fee, the tip, the delivery fee. You’re paying all this and before you know it, you’ve spent $30 and it’s only one meal that originally was $10.

ZACH: You could eat lunch for a week off that if you got this way, absolutely. So, talking about healthy alternatives, you know, and obviously, when it comes to mind are plant-based. So, plant-based meat substitutes, are they ultra-processed?

AMANDA: They are most of the time considered ultra-processed.

ZACH: Okay. Oh, that’s too bad, right?

AMANDA: So – but you know, I think that there is some room for flexibility here. So, what I usually tell people with the plant-based meat substitutes is, just like how you probably wouldn’t eat a burger every day, don’t have one of these plant-based, you know, burgers every single day of the week, right? It’s okay to have, you know, if you wanna have this on a Saturday, like, that’s okay. It’s all about balance. But maybe just don’t eat it every single day of the week.

ZACH: Right. Well, that is the trap of, “Well, it’s healthy so I can eat it whenever I want.”

AMANDA: Right.

ZACH: Well…

AMANDA: It is still considered a highly processed food.

ZACH: Yeah.

AMANDA: Yeah. So, some great alternatives to that would be doing tempeh, edamame, lentils or even tofu. Tofu is one of those foods that’s kind of more in the middle. It is a processed food, but it doesn’t have a really long ingredient list. It’s the edamame beans with some salt and usually some kind of calcium. That’s another alternative that’s gonna be way less processed than a plant-based protein meat ground for example.

ZACH: Heard a lot of avocado and edamame in these conversations, which is great because I like both of those things, so…I’m so – I am encouraged by this conversation. It’s good stuff. So, when we’re out there buying groceries, looking at labels, right, what can we look for on a label to alert us if something is ultra processed or not? Like a very basic description I read is, if it’s wrapped in plastic and has at least one ingredient you wouldn’t usually find in your kitchen like you were saying, it’s probably an ultra-processed food.

AMANDA: Yeah. And this is where it is difficult, right, because we said it’s a continuum and we said there’s foods that are kind of in the middle. So, what I usually look for to identify an ultra-processed food is usually it has that longer ingredient list. Usually, it’s gonna have more than like four ingredients. And usually, it’s gonna have things like stabilizers, colors, emulsifiers, these things that we don’t typically have in our kitchen. And one thing I wanna highlight again is that these things are not necessarily bad, right? The emulsifier, I’m not saying that’s the bad thing in that food. It’s usually the ultra-processed food as a whole. So, it’s not necessarily those additives that are making it bad for us is what I’m trying to say. It’s the fact that it’s ultra-processed is usually where the problem comes in.

ZACH: Right.

AMANDA: It’s not to say that we can’t have these foods, we just want to make them a smaller footprint on our overall diet.

ZACH: Excellent. Alright, well, thanks so much for being back on the podcast with us here, Amanda.

AMANDA: Absolutely. 

[Sound effect signals end of interview]

ZACH: So, Kim, unfortunately, a lot of the things I eat or like to eat, are ultra-processed foods as we found out talking to Amanda.

KIM: Like I said, it’s inescapable. They’re everywhere and you know, even some of the things that we might suggest like whole grain bread, they might have some of those ingredients that might technically make it more processed or more ultra-processed. But it’s still whole grain bread so maybe you don’t – maybe you should still get it. And I think it just goes to show that there’s the spectrum that she talked about that, you really have to make decisions for yourself about what you’re willing to eat…

ZACH: Yeah.

KIM: Versus, you know, maybe those corn chips with the flavor additives or whatever.

ZACH: They’re so good.

KIM: Those might not be the best choice, but if your whole grain bread might have a few ingredients that make it ultra-processed, maybe that’s the better choice.

ZACH: Yeah, like I told her in our conversation, I think we all know this is probably not the healthiest thing we should be eating. Now, there is a lot of grey area sometimes, so that’s very tricky. Like granola bars, like that is fool’s gold when it comes on -- “Well, this is healthy, right?” No, it’s not actually.

KIM: Yeah.

ZACH: Like if something is sustainable for – “Oh, this expires in two years.” Yeah, that’s probably not gonna be the best thing to be eating on a regular basis, right?

KIM: Yeah, and I thought another point where there’s so much in this about marketing, so I think some processed foods have emerged because we don’t want the unhealthy ultra-processed foods, we want our healthier processed foods that might have like protein chips or you know, whatever. So, it has like this health halo. “I can eat my chips and they’re healthy for me because I’m getting all this protein.”

ZACH: Yeah, the mental aspect of it or the -- even the sociological aspect of it really of like, “Oh, you need this,” or, “This is gonna help you here,” we talked about that. And there is a silver lining to every cloud here. And I think what might help is, you know, the fast-foods, the fast casuals as Amanda put it foods, they’re getting more expensive, right? So, if you do these swaps that we were talking about, not only is it healthier, it’s probably gonna save you money and time.

KIM: Yeah, for certain. And you know, I think what I liked about what Amanda shared is that I think it’s safe to say you’re never really going to be able to fully eliminate these from your diet. It’s just impractical. But I think finding ways to make heathier choices in this very imperfect system is important. And I know for myself it’s like to avoid just getting on an app and ordering food delivery -- like if I keep certain simple things around like boxed mac and cheese, and you know, I’ll get the one with the healthier health halo or whatever, make that. Steam my frozen broccoli, steam some frozen peas, throw that all in there. Maybe like throw in, like, a can of beans or something. That’s healthier than what I was going to order on my food delivery app.

ZACH: Right.

KIM: So, you know, finding ways to make it work for you, I loved her approach.

ZACH: Yeah, I love the idea of like preparing these, you know, boxes be it like burrito boxes, or mediterranean boxes, or poke bowls or….

KIM: Yes.

ZACH: I think those are great options and alternatives, so like going and getting a burger and fries and a shake, as appealing as that might sound, these are also good and fulfilling.

KIM: I think that’s one of the things, right, because ultra-processed foods do tend to be the cheaper foods. And so, if you’re on a limited budget, have limited time, you’re gonna try to go for those foods sometimes. And so, like, how can you be adding more nutrition to them is always key.

ZACH: Absolutely. Well, that’s gonna do it for this episode of On Health with Houston Methodist. Be sure to share, like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We drop episodes Tuesday mornings, so until next time stay tuned and stay healthy.